5 Sunday's this month, local match on the 3rd Sunday?

Post by **Capnjon** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:32 pm

I'm sure it's been addressed in the past but wondering which Sunday would be assigned.

gau17 · Post by **gau17** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:58 pm

I thought it's the 2nd Sunday.

Mudlol · Post by **Mudlol** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:12 pm

I believe it's the 2nd Sunday of the month. Is there a match this Sunday?

Post by **AR15barrels** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:10 pm

Wanted: Match director to plan and execute monthly matches for CAPRC.
Apply within.

Point of Impact · Post by **Point of Impact** » Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:36 am

In to help. Oh wait. What happened?

gau17 · Post by **gau17** » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:20 pm

I think management let the old man that yells at everyone go.

MichaelV · Post by **MichaelV** » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:17 pm

Calling Rich!

khw9mm · Post by **khw9mm** » Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:20 pm

Rich C!!

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Post by **AR15barrels** » Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:30 pm

Point of Impact wrote:In to help. Oh wait. What happened?

Brad and I have been running the matches for over 5 years.
It's time for someone else or preferably a group of people to step up and take over the running of the monthly matches.
One person can't do it alone.
What would be best is if 3-4 people would split the work up.
Maybe Rich could run 3 matches next year.
Maybe 3 other people can step up to plan and run 3 matches next year as well.
Bam, there's a year of matches...

bcrich · Post by **bcrich** » Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:30 am

Crickets ........

gau17 · Post by **gau17** » Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:31 am

I think we would get more people to step up if we ran this thing like how it's supposed to. Like a club. Califoria Precision Rifle CLUB........

In my eyes I see CAPRC as just a venue to shoot matches and not as a club. There is no interactions with club member. Heck we don't even know who the club members are. We don't have meetings, train new shooters, have special events like potlucks, or have a voice on what the club does or doesn't.

I see so much potential in some of the guys who do shoot our monthlies. There is nothing in place to help them improve. They are just left to figure things out on their own. As paid members we should be helping them out. Maybe hold clinics for the guys who do shoot every month. What do members get now? discount on monthlies.

I hope you guys don't take this the wrong way. The only reason I'm saying this is because I DO care about the club/CAPRC and the guys that shoot every month. If I didn't care, I would just let it go to the ground. Randall if your willing to make changes I will happily help out.

ok. Happy Friday. I'm off my soap box.

Point of Impact · Post by **Point of Impact** » Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:59 am

Well said Solo.

Post by **AR15barrels** » Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:13 am

gau17 wrote:I think we would get more people to step up if we ran this thing like how it's supposed to. Like a club. Califoria Precision Rifle CLUB........

In my eyes I see CAPRC as just a venue to shoot matches and not as a club. There is no interactions with club member. Heck we don't even know who the club members are. We don't have meetings, train new shooters, have special events like potlucks, or have a voice on what the club does or doesn't.

I see so much potential in some of the guys who do shoot our monthlies. There is nothing in place to help them improve. They are just left to figure things out on their own. As paid members we should be helping them out. Maybe hold clinics for the guys who do shoot every month. What do members get now? discount on monthlies.

I hope you guys don't take this the wrong way. The only reason I'm saying this is because I DO care about the club/CAPRC and the guys that shoot every month. If I didn't care, I would just let it go to the ground. Randall if your willing to make changes I will happily help out.

ok. Happy Friday. I'm off my soap box.

All of this has always been possible.
It just needs people with the initiative to step up and organize it.

gau17 · Post by **gau17** » Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:25 am

Hmmm. I've voiced my concerns to one of the officers of the club and it's never been addressed.

gau17 · Post by **gau17** » Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:46 am

If you're serious we should sit down with others to discuss how we can move forward.

Post by **Capnjon** » Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:47 am

Do we still have this Sunday shooting area reserved.? If not a match have a casual morning group shoot and face to face discussion for those interested in moving forward,organizing and addressing things. I thoroughly enjoy the matches and shooting in general. Work and family limits my time but I would be willing to put an effort.

gau17 · Post by **gau17** » Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:51 am

A few of us are planning to shoot/practice. Come out and hang

Post by **Capnjon** » Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:54 am

I will be there. Same match time? Be there before before line goes hot?

Post by **AR15barrels** » Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:01 am

gau17 wrote:A few of us are planning to shoot/practice. Come out and hang

You should post up an announcement for these practices.
You might get a lot more club members to participate than when you keep it to just texting each other.
That would be more like a club...

gau17 · Post by **gau17** » Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:42 am

AR15barrels wrote:
You should post up an announcement for these practices.
You might get a lot more club members to participate than when you keep it to just texting each other.
That would be more like a club...

You're right it would be a club. But like I said above, I don't see that way for the reason I stated above.

Since you canceled last me minute. Some of us with families already had the day penciled in to shoot so that's what we are doing. Shooting. Nothing formal.

Post by **AR15barrels** » Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:18 am

gau17 wrote:
You're right it would be a club. But like I said above, I don't see that way for the reason I stated above.

Since you canceled last me minute. Some of us with families already had the day penciled in to shoot so that's what we are doing. Shooting. Nothing formal.

I didn't cancel the match.
I'm just not available to run it.
Rich is not available either, I tried there.
Anyone else can run a match.
Please step up and help if you can.

Post by **Hollywood_Shooter** » Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:23 am

gau17 wrote: We don't....train new shooters...There is nothing in place to help them improve. They are just left to figure things out on their own....we should be helping them out. Maybe hold clinics...

You know, I've only been here a year this month, so when it comes to internal club issues, as a new club member, I tend to keep my mouth shut and my ears open.

However, regarding improving, without any doubt in my mind, it's the trigger time UNDER the buzzer of the monthly matches that are most directly responsible for building the foundation of my experience and improving my abilities. It would be a shame to lose such a beneficial activity.

As for figuring things out on my own, there certainly is quite a bit of that, but honestly there are a few club members, and one in particular, that I have relied on HEAVILY to help me move further down the road. Without the advice and input from club members, I would be sucking exponentially more than I already am.

I've never spoken to a club member who wasn't willing to offer the benefit of their greater experience...but I think it's up to each new member to decide how proactive they want to be about engaging with other members, and how much time & energy they put into advancing their skill set. You can lead a horse to water... But yes, certainly if there were more opportunities for new members to educate themselves, there would hopefully be those eager to participate.

All that being said, Solo, if you want to impart to me your winning Jedi techniques, I would happily avail myself to the opportunity. Unfortunately this Sunday, I'm shooting an AR-match at Piru, and won't be out to practice with you guys.

Meanwhile, there are of course the yearly "A, B, C, & D Clinics", which I eagerly took advantage of this past year and found to be both educational and inspirational. Are you suggesting that they should be run more than once-per-year, or that additional clinics, or some other type of training should be offered? I'm all for any opportunity to (BBQ, and...) increase my knowledge and experience, but it seems just keeping the monthlies running smoothly are a bigger priority at the moment.

I don't know that I have any more spare time than the next guy...but I certainly want to be supportive of ANY ideas that help keep this train on the track.

GforceJunkie · Post by **GforceJunkie** » Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:31 pm

gau17 wrote:I think we would get more people to step up if we ran this thing like how it's supposed to. Like a club. Califoria Precision Rifle CLUB........

Thats the problem, no body want to step up so the same 3-4 guys do all the work.

In my eyes I see CAPRC as just a venue to shoot matches and not as a club.

That is basically what the members have said they want with their actions. For the most part, they haven't submitted COF's or come to meetings or volunteered even when asked. What can the club do if people just want to show up, pay, shoot a match, and leave?

There is no interactions with club member. Heck we don't even know who the club members are. We don't have meetings, train new shooters, have special events like potlucks, or have a voice on what the club does or doesn't.

We have tried to schedule regular meeting in the past, maybe one or 2 people show up. We have offered to hold BBQ's every time we have Fort Angeles after things such as rimfire matches (which nobody seems to want to attend either hence the last one being cancled) but the response is nearly non existant. As for training, the Clinics are the only things that regularly fillup so thats why they are still going. With the same 3-5 volunteers running them everytime.

I see so much potential in some of the guys who do shoot our monthlies. There is nothing in place to help them improve. They are just left to figure things out on their own. As paid members we should be helping them out. Maybe hold clinics for the guys who do shoot every month. What do members get now? discount on monthlies.

Saving $240 a year on monthlies seems to be the only thing members want. They wont come to meetings. They wont help hold BBQ's. They wont come to Rimfire matches. They wont submit COF's or stages when requested. Its tough to be a "club" when people won't get involved. This whole thing is volunteer, it only works when people volunteer.

I hope you guys don't take this the wrong way. The only reason I'm saying this is because I DO care about the club/CAPRC and the guys that shoot every month. If I didn't care, I would just let it go to the ground. Randall if your willing to make changes I will happily help out.

ok. Happy Friday. I'm off my soap box.

Your not saying anything other havent said or thought before. Some of us really think the club could be a great thing, but when every effort is thwarted...eventualy you just let it slide. The club is basically a blank slate, it can be what the members want it to be...but that means more than 3-5 guys do 95% of the work.

gau17 · Post by **gau17** » Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:29 pm

I've never seen an invite to a meeting or bbq. When was the last time you guys sent a formal invite on the forum?

gau17 · Post by **gau17** » Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:49 pm

Randal how is this. The past is the past. It is what it is. Let focus on a solution.

Why don't we pick a weekend and invite the club members to attend. This way you can voice what you think needs to happen instead of asking 3-4 people to man up. We can try to come up with a solution as a group instead of just relying on someone to step up.

Let me know what everyone here thinks. I'll get the word out.

deepsix++ · Post by **deepsix++** » Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:05 pm

Im willing to do something , i will attend a meeting of some sort . Its just I live about an hour away from every one with no trafic so what i can do would be some what limited . I would still like to do something though even if its as simple as bringing doughnuts .

Post by **AR15barrels** » Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:05 pm

gau17 wrote:Why don't we pick a weekend and invite the club members to attend. This way you can voice what you think needs to happen instead of asking 3-4 people to man up. We can try to come up with a solution as a group instead of just relying on someone to step up.

Let me know what everyone here thinks. I'll get the word out.

Make it happen.

Downrange67 · Post by **Downrange67** » Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:15 pm

gau17 wrote:I've never seen an invite to a meeting or bbq. When was the last time you guys sent a formal invite on the forum?

I've been shooting the matches and I help out where I can for the past 2 years and I've never seen a post about a club meeting.

gau17 · Post by **gau17** » Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:15 pm

Everyone get the word out we need to have a mandatory meeting this month. We have to come up with a weekend we can all meet.

Downrange67 · Post by **Downrange67** » Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:35 pm

I have no idea how many spots are open for membership each year or how many people actually run the club. I know Randall and Brad have been around from the beginning and that's who we see but is there anyone else involved? Maybe some of the monthly duties can be re-distributed among all the members so the same people don't get burned out?

Having said that, I am planning on shooting at Angeles this Sunday, when it opens, if some of you can make it we can discuss this further.

buffybuster · Post by **buffybuster** » Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:50 pm

In an effort to spread the load and reduce the effort:
1. Can we develop a "Stage Book"? A central resource where we can place every stage description, with suggested target packages, distances, par times, etc.. This way the MD's can pick from a selection instead of feeling like reinventing the wheel. New stages are always welcome, but this would make it simpler. Any stage we shoot at another match that's interesting could be included.

2. Have a Basic procedure manual for being a MD and running match. An "Idiots Guide to Match Directing", tips and tricks to a smooth match. POC at Angeles, POC for targets, timers, spotters, etc...

3. Get a calendar so people can schedule and sign up for a specific Sunday and have say 3 people as Co-MD's per match. Something like a Google Calendar, that everyone can see.

It's a commitment but if things are standardized and proceduralized, then it becomes more manageable.

gau17 · Post by **gau17** » Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:29 pm

See this is what we need. An open discussion

JP_Fred · Post by **JP_Fred** » Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:53 pm

As someone who has only helped and is still waiting to shoot my first match, I should probably say out of this thread. But maybe the completely new guy's perspective would help.

Suggestions for helping get new guys up to speed and contributing sooner (not just trying to keep their head above water):

1. Designate a volunteer Club Day one non-match weekend a month. Experienced shooters would be there and offer to give tips on shooting and positions, help zero, set up gear, work on dope, etc. Maybe set up a rotation so at least one expert is there for sure, but the rest is voluntary. I see this happen occasionally on the forums with one or two people, but it would be nice to have it regularly. I don't need a 1-on-1 mentor, but having someone there to answer questions or give tips would be awesome. Matches are too busy and people are otherwise focused, and formal clinics are too much of a pain to run all the time. It would also allow some social interaction without the match stress.

2. Exploit the new guy enthusiasm to help with matches. I went to help at one match and ended up just running targets. Was happy to do it, but didn't see anyone getting taught to spot, score, time, etc. I'd love to help with those things eventually but feel I have miles to go before I can. It's a pain for the match directors to teach while herding cats in a match, but would pay off in the long run.

Clinics sound awesome, but they are once a year. Everyone has been super helpful in forums and PMs, but 1) it's not always easy to constantly ask people you barely know for 1-on-1 help, particularly in the middle of a competition, and 2) I'm sure I don't know what I don't know and what I should be asking.

The learning curve consists of:
1. read some articles, buy some gear, hope it's the right gear
2. watch some videos, set up and zero your gear, shoot
3. watch some videos, try to teach yourself positions, shoot
4. jump in a match, miss some targets, and hope you learn

I'm happily grinding through it, but you might get more fresh faces and energy if you ease that a bit for those with personalities not suited to just jump in. Getting through that quicker also means being able to get comfortable actually helping run the matches faster.

I'll go back into my lurking cave now and continue to prepare for the next match.

John

Mudlol · Post by **Mudlol** » Fri Nov 06, 2015 4:26 pm

I am willing to help out. But I still feel new to the club and I don't know where I can help. There are a lot of good ideas above.

A central calendar would be nice and a good start we can list the volunteers willing to help and assign tasks and or responsibilities. Let people step up and help out. Asking people to help out the week of the match can be tough because we all have other responsibilities and could be crunch for time.

Also, I feel we don't need a match every month. It would be cool to do a club clinic/practice where where we focus on one thing. For example, barricade practice were we setup a couple of props and practice shooting/positioning and at the same time give feed back to one another helping each other improve.

Post by **trailtundra** » Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:13 pm

I'm in for practice Sunday.

Being a new member this year it's been a lot of fun shooting the clinics and getting into the matches. The clinic system, in my opinion, is a great feeder into precision shooting.
I appreciate all of the work that's put into the courses of fire, running out to setup steel, the running of the matches, and then going back again the pickup the steel.

Could there be a double shift to run (some of?) the matches so that they can split the day and at least get to shoot half of the stages?

evo · Post by **evo** » Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:14 pm

My family situation is currently keeping me from trying my had at running a match, but it's certainly something I'm interested in for next year. I'd appreciate that COF book Henry as well as some of the more logistical pointers from Randall, Brad, Rich C. and Rich G.

GforceJunkie · Post by **GforceJunkie** » Sat Nov 07, 2015 6:20 pm

I like to see this enthusiasm. I don't like, as this thread is showing, fewer than 8-10 people willing to help. We get it, people have kids, familys, soccer games, other matches, work, church, etc. So the few have been doing the bare minimum to keep the monthly matches going. The times we (and i can't count myself very much as I have been pretty absent the last year or so) made a big push to hold meetings, change up the shooting (add rimfire, saturday matches, etc.), alot of work resulted in very little participation. 2011 we ran an organized points series where people were required to volunteer 2 matches and shoot 6 matches to be eligable. As I recall we had fewer than 10 people willing to do that. Subtract the people that were running it like me, keith, randall, etc and we ended up with a ton of work, scorekeeping and effort for like 6 people. 6 people. You can see how the management can get burned out when this happens. We plan and held Rimfire matches and typically got 5-8 people to show up. That doesn't even cover the range rental fee, not counting the 5-10 hours of of prep to make the stages, organize a COF, draw up targets, go to Kinkos to print targets, trip to Home Depot to buy wood for the target stands, get to the Conex box early and haul all the stuff to the range, stay late to tear it all down, etc. Centerfire match, we have to go to the range on the Saturday before, haul all the steel out of the Conex, drive it out to the 200-600 yard line and place it all. Then after the match Sunday, either wait around 4-5 hours or leave and come back after the range closes and retrieve all the steel and store it away. All the damage done to the stands? That goes home with me or Randall because someone has to fix it, weld it, make new stands or legs, etc. Then drive it back to the range. All this behind the scenes stuff takes a huge amount of personal time, wear and tear on your vehicle, gas money, all for zero gain. Its all voluntary. Who else, right now, is willing to put 100 miles on your truck, burn 100 miles worth of your own gas, beat the shit out of your truckbed with 500 pounds of steel, and donate 10 hours of your time over 2-3 different days to hold the next match? Speak up and we will give you all the info and guidance you need. Oh, and don't forget to pay for and take the time to get an NRA RSO certification because Angeles Shooting Ranges makes that a requirement for insurance. I really have had high hopes for the club in the past, but unlike others clubs like the Nor Cal one, we just don't have the volunteer pool necessary to make it awesome. I hope I am proven wrong someday.

GforceJunkie · Post by **GforceJunkie** » Sat Nov 07, 2015 6:30 pm

buffybuster wrote:In an effort to spread the load and reduce the effort:
1. Can we develop a "Stage Book"? A central resource where we can place every stage description, with suggested target packages, distances, par times, etc.. This way the MD's can pick from a selection instead of feeling like reinventing the wheel. New stages are always welcome, but this would make it simpler. Any stage we shoot at another match that's interesting could be included.

Pretty much every stage for the last 4-5 years is posted in the AAR (After Action Reports.) There is a Match Directors sub forum most people cant see that has some additional info that could be posted. Nearly every target we use and many old COF's have been available here for years: http://www.caprc.com/targets/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2. Have a Basic procedure manual for being a MD and running match. An "Idiots Guide to Match Directing", tips and tricks to a smooth match. POC at Angeles, POC for targets, timers, spotters, etc...

That could be put together without toomuch effort.

3. Get a calendar so people can schedule and sign up for a specific Sunday and have say 3 people as Co-MD's per match. Something like a Google Calendar, that everyone can see.

Every range day reservation is know by october of preceeding year so yes, a calendar would not be hard to set up.

It's a commitment but if things are standardized and proceduralized, then it becomes more manageable.

gau17 · Post by **gau17** » Mon Nov 09, 2015 2:44 pm

GforceJunkie wrote:I like to see this enthusiasm. I don't like, as this thread is showing, fewer than 8-10 people willing to help. We get it, people have kids, familys, soccer games, other matches, work, church, etc. So the few have been doing the bare minimum to keep the monthly matches going. The times we (and i can't count myself very much as I have been pretty absent the last year or so) made a big push to hold meetings, change up the shooting (add rimfire, saturday matches, etc.), alot of work resulted in very little participation. 2011 we ran an organized points series where people were required to volunteer 2 matches and shoot 6 matches to be eligable. As I recall we had fewer than 10 people willing to do that. Subtract the people that were running it like me, keith, randall, etc and we ended up with a ton of work, scorekeeping and effort for like 6 people. 6 people. You can see how the management can get burned out when this happens. We plan and held Rimfire matches and typically got 5-8 people to show up. That doesn't even cover the range rental fee, not counting the 5-10 hours of of prep to make the stages, organize a COF, draw up targets, go to Kinkos to print targets, trip to Home Depot to buy wood for the target stands, get to the Conex box early and haul all the stuff to the range, stay late to tear it all down, etc. Centerfire match, we have to go to the range on the Saturday before, haul all the steel out of the Conex, drive it out to the 200-600 yard line and place it all. Then after the match Sunday, either wait around 4-5 hours or leave and come back after the range closes and retrieve all the steel and store it away. All the damage done to the stands? That goes home with me or Randall because someone has to fix it, weld it, make new stands or legs, etc. Then drive it back to the range. All this behind the scenes stuff takes a huge amount of personal time, wear and tear on your vehicle, gas money, all for zero gain. Its all voluntary. Who else, right now, is willing to put 100 miles on your truck, burn 100 miles worth of your own gas, beat the shit out of your truckbed with 500 pounds of steel, and donate 10 hours of your time over 2-3 different days to hold the next match? Speak up and we will give you all the info and guidance you need. Oh, and don't forget to pay for and take the time to get an NRA RSO certification because Angeles Shooting Ranges makes that a requirement for insurance. I really have had high hopes for the club in the past, but unlike others clubs like the Nor Cal one, we just don't have the volunteer pool necessary to make it awesome. I hope I am proven wrong someday.

Mike I agree to what you're saying but this was also about the same time frame CAPRC had a falling out with some of it's key members. The club moral was pretty low. I'm hoping this time we can make it work once we get everyone on the same page. If not then the club dies. See you at dinner tonight

Thanks to all that were able to make it out yesterday. For those who were not able to make it, don't worry. We plan on scheduling more club practices in the future.

khw9mm · Post by **khw9mm** » Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:01 pm

Here are some pictures from this weekend.

khw9mm · Post by **khw9mm** » Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:03 pm

gau17 · Post by **gau17** » Tue Nov 10, 2015 7:52 am

Nice pics Kevin.

johnlee · Post by **johnlee** » Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:36 am

Great pics, Kev.

Thanks for sharing.

gau17 · Post by **gau17** » Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:39 am

Who is missing a brow run and gun bag?

Post by **Hollywood_Shooter** » Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:43 am

Thanks for the pics, Solomon & Kevin!

buffybuster · Post by **buffybuster** » Tue Nov 10, 2015 12:55 pm

gau17 wrote:Who is missing a brow run and gun bag?

Put your name on your stuff...........

Downrange67 · Post by **Downrange67** » Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:31 pm

It was good seeing everyone.

Post by **Gnzrme** » Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:44 pm

Sorry I missed it... Mike is right... I always see the same people helping out... New help is needed and appreciated. ...

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